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| | controversial topics (Discussion) | |
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+8RedAngel Maxmordon endless dark Spooky MoonRaven Ginger_Snaps cynfullov ravengrim 12 posters | |
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Guest Guest
| | | | ravengrim Moderator
Number of posts : 7192 Age : 51 Location : At The End Of Time : : The Fallen Angel : : More Numbers : 7685943 Registration date : 2008-07-21
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:51 pm | |
| O.K. I'll bite,but I doubt that's a woman myself. Just saying. Of all the things that bother me most about the relic the one that sticks out most is the weave of the fabric.Researchers have said this type of weave is consistant with what a wealthy Jewish person would have owned. Not really a historian or anything but wealthy and Jesus aren't two things I associate with each other.Shroud Of Turin (Skeptic's Dictionary) | |
| | | cynfullov star member
Number of posts : 3919 Location : Wickedly at play while the GODS of HADES give an ever watchful grinning eye. : : More Numbers : 7643509 Registration date : 2008-08-20
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:11 pm | |
| A wealthy female admirer perhaps having taken it off her own body?
Sometimes covering the dead with something worn of your own is a way of wrapping one's self and love around them.
There also is the possibility it was acquired in the giving of the converts as they gave up their wealth unto the poor. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:51 pm | |
| - cynfullov wrote:
- A wealthy female admirer perhaps having taken it off her own body?
Sometimes covering the dead with something worn of your own is a way of wrapping one's self and love around them.
There also is the possibility it was acquired in the giving of the converts as they gave up their wealth unto the poor. That's the thing though, it's a burial shroud. It's only used after a person is dead. So if it was used twice, or given up with wealth when converted, that would mean someone was tomb robbing wouldn't it? |
| | | Ginger_Snaps Moderator
Number of posts : 4545 Age : 36 Location : The Otherworld : : Werewolf : : More Numbers : 7583589 Registration date : 2008-07-22
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:36 pm | |
| I had never heard the female DNA thing. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:38 pm | |
| - Ginger_Snaps wrote:
- I had never heard the female DNA thing.
I'm still trying to find the "research" for that. I heard it from a friend who apparently looked it up. |
| | | MoonRaven Moderator
Number of posts : 9359 Age : 40 Location : Cherry Blossom tree :P : : Geisha : : More Numbers : 7678557 Registration date : 2008-07-21
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:15 pm | |
| I'm too lazy to look it up but Jesus was a buried in a tomb that was saved for another man. He offered it to Jesus. Maybe the guy was wealthy and it was his shroud that was wrapped around Jesus. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:21 pm | |
| According to that septic sight, the bible says the shroud was supplied by Joseph of Aramathea. And goes on to say that he was a wealthy guy. |
| | | MoonRaven Moderator
Number of posts : 9359 Age : 40 Location : Cherry Blossom tree :P : : Geisha : : More Numbers : 7678557 Registration date : 2008-07-21
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:27 pm | |
| At least I remembered what I learned in school | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:31 pm | |
| From what I've read (mainly from the sceptic site) it can't be dated any farther back than the 14th century
and if there were really multiple wrappings like the bible said (including one just for the face) then how is so much shown on the shroud? |
| | | cynfullov star member
Number of posts : 3919 Location : Wickedly at play while the GODS of HADES give an ever watchful grinning eye. : : More Numbers : 7643509 Registration date : 2008-08-20
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:42 pm | |
| People get juicy when they rot? I should have used the word decay, not as disrespectful sounding.
Then again it is Jesus we're talking about here so it could be seen as a spiritual thing so people will continue to be faithful. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:48 pm | |
| ^^But there's not any voids or lighter areas that would show that there was another piece of fabric there.. |
| | | Spooky vip member
Number of posts : 1421 Age : 42 Location : Exit 11: New Jersey : : More Numbers : 7573423 Registration date : 2008-07-28
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:41 am | |
| Those do appear a bit like breasts.
To me, this is just like people who see an effigy of Christ in a dog's a$$ (true story look it up), or Mother Mary in a bagel. I'm sure if I really looked, I could see Colin Farrell's face in a bucket of icecream or Kathy Lee Gifford silhouette in the rust of an 86 Ford pick-up. People only get excited about religious pictures, because they're looking for them, and they have a subconsciousness pull in our minds.
We're basing what Jesus would have looked like, not Jesus the magical virgin-birthed un-dead superhero, but rather the more reasonable civil-activist and freedom fighter Jesus; on paintings and engravings created three to four hundred years after his supposed execution. No one can and will ever know exactly what this person would have looked like, and the happenstance of this being the magic shroud placed on him is too great.
This is just another avenue where religion tried to use science to validate something religion has no business dealing with: fact. Religion doesn't have to be factual to be important, but in our ever intellectually expanding world, religion is being less needed and grasping at anything to stay prominent. There were no camera's back then, so this is the way to say; "look, we basically have a picture taken of Christ so he's real and we're right, yeah". The same mentality was put into searching for pottery that would supposedly have recorded the voice of Jesus, after the Pompeii pottery was played back like a record and the faint echoes of a pottery workshop from 1200 years ago can be heard. Religion has many detractors, science and rationality can cause a lot of it to seem silly, but needing to prove religious stories is more about the faithful needing to prove it to themselves than to throw it in the faces of atheists or agnostics.
It's just one dead person, one nameless person who lived, loved, laughed, lost, and then laid down and died. Millions died before him/her, a billion have died after him/her, the only thing that makes this one person special is that their death dressings remembered them long after all their relatives and friends were dead and forgotten as well. This isn't the face of a savior, just the shadow of a person from a time long before ours'. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:36 pm | |
| Okay, everyone up for a new topic? This one I kind of posted about before.
From the General Rant....Thread:
- ME!!! wrote:
- I know quote a National Geographic article...
- Quote :
- Thomas Robert Malthus.... was a mild-mannered mathematician, a clergyman-- and, his critics would say, the ultimate glass-half-empty kind of guy. When a few Enlightenment philosophers, giddy from the success of the French Revolution, began predicting the continued unfettered improvement of the human condition, Malthus cut them off at the knees. Human population, he observed, increases at a geometric rate, doubling about every 25 years if left unchecked, while agricultural production increases arithmetically-- much more slowly. Therein lay a biological trap that humanity could never escape.
"The power of population is indefinitely greater than the power in the earth to produce subsistence for man," he wrote in his Essay on the Principle of Population in 1798. "This implies a strong and constantly operating check on population from the difficulty of subsistence." Malthus thought such checks could be voluntary, such as birth control, abstinence, or delayed marriage-- or involuntary, through the scourges of war, famine, and disease. It went on to say he was against giving food to the poor unless they were the poorest of the poor because giving food relief encouraged people to birth into that type of status (poorest of poor). Charles Dickens's Ebenezer Scrooge is an attack at the values of Malthus. I guess I need to also explain the "poorest of the poor" bit. It was the thought that those who really needed the help (like those who were in the middle of a war-zone and really couldn't help themselves) should get it, while those who were poor, but could find ways to help themselves (like people on welfare and such) shouldn't receive help because it would give them the idea that it was okay to live like that and would birth and raise their children to think the same thing ("I can barely make ends meet, but if I have a kid, the government will give me all this money!").
What are your views on this and also with the thoughts that nature will weed some of us out due to need. Even when we try to eradicate sickness and famine, it is still there and sometimes a lot worse than it would have been had we not intervened. |
| | | Ginger_Snaps Moderator
Number of posts : 4545 Age : 36 Location : The Otherworld : : Werewolf : : More Numbers : 7583589 Registration date : 2008-07-22
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:17 pm | |
| Most people don't want to know that our burgeoning population is exceeding our earth's carrying capacity. Once a species exceeds the environment's carrying capacity, that species dies; we are on our way to starving ourselves to death. Since societal controls don't usually work, we are just going to have to wait for a massive plague to wipe out the population excess. | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:55 am | |
| It is. But at the same time, can we really let them starve/die because we need the playing field levelled out? Who's to say we should live only because we have the resources?
I know it's inevitable, but sometimes I wish it would strike the spoiled (like a brat) country (America) instead of always striking the poorer countries. |
| | | cynfullov star member
Number of posts : 3919 Location : Wickedly at play while the GODS of HADES give an ever watchful grinning eye. : : More Numbers : 7643509 Registration date : 2008-08-20
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:29 pm | |
| nsane are you volunteering to be the first victim in this strike? | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:00 pm | |
| ^^No. I'd rather try and talk sense into people to get them to change their ways. My state is one of the biggest corn growers and meat eaters in the country because we raise it, but still. You should here some of these people's logic. "If I grow it (or can afford it) who can tell me what I can and can't eat?"
There's also the fact that America in general is rather ignorant of the rest of the world. I really doubt that if I walk down the street and ask random people who the leaders of Canada (of all places) are, no one will be able to answer correctly, and they're right across the border from us. It's also been proven that Americans have actually added about a half a meal to their daily diets since the mid 1900s. That's a lot of food. We also waste about 27% of consumable food in America. "Waste not, want not" was the saying. Not any more it seems.
We're a country that is spoiled because we get everything we want by bullying other countries. Most impoverished countries are told to "No! Don't be self-sufficient! You should actually grow these foods so we can buy them from you and then you'll have money to buy the food you need! It's called Globalization! See? We have all these organizations that we made telling you to do it too! WHy don't you?!" |
| | | endless dark admin
Number of posts : 6473 Age : 43 Location : Roc. NY : : Fearless Leader : : More Numbers : 7680572 Registration date : 2008-07-21
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:12 pm | |
| I'll do my thoughts so far on the second "controversial topic" first...
this doesn't sound very well thought out, I'd like to see the full artical, essay, blog whatever it is before I say anything to deeply about it but thise "mathematician/clergyman" sounds like he's taking some things that make sence and mixing it his whatever looks right...
I think Gingers post is global so I don't know who this, "them" is that "we" are letting starve or die in nsane's post. considering that it would be a global extintion there is no them or us in the matter... Also in nsanes post, the last part is void of relevance in my opinion since we have parts of this country that are equally as bad as any third world country if you know where to look. the part most people see are the louder more prominant, anyone feels like a roadtrip you could go to Mudstick Kentucky its a decent portrait of real poverty. hit the hills people made their houses and grow/raise their food and you can forget about cell signals, ipods, wifi and all that stuff. We have without a doubt (at least in my mind) one of the better countries in the world, if not the best (I said country, not government, I have those sheep shankers) but theres still a lot of f**ked up sh*t in it... | |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:51 pm | |
| - endless dark wrote:
- this doesn't sound very well thought out, I'd like to see the full artical, essay, blog whatever it is before I say anything to deeply about it but thise "mathematician/clergyman" sounds like he's taking some things that make sence and mixing it his whatever looks right..
http://www.econlib.org/library/Malthus/malPlong.html |
| | | Maxmordon star member
Number of posts : 4066 Age : 33 Location : Venezuela : : Distopian Man : : More Numbers : 7572413 Registration date : 2008-07-28
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:51 pm | |
| Ah, yes, the Malthusian catastrophe. Do we need another world war to be cool? Seriously, though. Europe is begoting less and less children in the world while the population of the poor people multiply, so it (apparently seems) to be getting more balanced in the future, I hope. | |
| | | Ginger_Snaps Moderator
Number of posts : 4545 Age : 36 Location : The Otherworld : : Werewolf : : More Numbers : 7583589 Registration date : 2008-07-22
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:17 am | |
| And those places that have a continuing increase in population, the land is unable to feed the population. This graph was done in 1994 and you can see how off the projection is for 2025: Just think, if a zombie outbreak were to occur, imagine how bad it will be with a growing population. | |
| | | Spooky vip member
Number of posts : 1421 Age : 42 Location : Exit 11: New Jersey : : More Numbers : 7573423 Registration date : 2008-07-28
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:15 am | |
| What we need is a good damn plague, something that runs through about 1/4 of the population in about a decade or less.
Is it cruel, of course?
Yet our advancements in science, technology and medicine is actually preventing this very natural life-cycle from happening. When forests grow wild lighting causes fires to burn it, when herds grow to large famine wipes half of them out, when lands become exhausted volcanoes destroy the surface only to deposit better/more enriched soil. But humans have fought increasingly too hard to combat this natural occurrence when it pertains to ourselves, so we opt in destroying the planet and raping her of her resources, while keeping those barely alive on life support and wasting our precious resources on those dealing with droughts and genocide.
Yeah it's awful, but it's also a fact of life, and trying to combat the natural pruning of the species by keeping the weak and old alive is actually the most inhumane thing we can do. Because it's making the lives of the stronger and more populated areas harder and harder, because we're carrying the rest. War is a way humans have kept each other in check, up until the creation of total warfare at the dawn of the last century, and now war is always "bad". So how can we make room for the next generations when their getting piled up here like a traffic jam? Sorry ancient, sickly, diseased or destitute; but if your can't get your sh!t together and carry on anymore, the world has to leave you behind. Every other animal with a herd-mentality knows that you let the weak get picked off my the predators, so that the majority can carry on, refusing to do this is going to kill off those who can continue to keep the herd in prominence.
We as a species need to allow the weak to be picked off by the predators, even if that means by fellow humans or geographical issues. | |
| | | Ginger_Snaps Moderator
Number of posts : 4545 Age : 36 Location : The Otherworld : : Werewolf : : More Numbers : 7583589 Registration date : 2008-07-22
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:13 am | |
| There is a plague every century, and apparently we are past due. Also, the caldera in Yellowstone is past due to erupt, but I think I would rather suffer a plague than the wrath of a super volcano. | |
| | | RedAngel star member
Number of posts : 5385 Age : 46 Location : CT/NC: Josephine on my mind : : More Numbers : 7412524 Registration date : 2008-11-30
| Subject: Re: controversial topics (Discussion) Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:55 pm | |
| While I'm not sure I agree with population control through war, disease or neglect, I am very glad to hear I'm not the only one who does not believe reproduction is/should be the ultimate life goal. With the numbers of people in my life getting pregnant, and with apparent disregard for whether they can support another person, I was starting to feel like a freak for not wanting to have a child.
I've never wanted to be a mom, and I don't see my feelings ever changing. I feel like I can give plenty to the people around me, without creating a new person for that purpose. (Besides, there are plenty of moms taking care of the population thing -- probably too many.) And I've taken some heat lately for my beliefs.
If I ever had to be a parent (if God forbid one of my friends passed away but had wanted me to raise her child), I would be a parent. But I would not choose this path otherwise.
So yeah, thanks for not shoving babies down my throat. Metaphorically.
edit: Nothing against parents. It's a damn hard job, and they've got my respect. | |
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